From CRO Founder to Business Angel: Rethinking Clinical Research and Leadership

00:00:00: I hope that more people understand, they have only one life.

00:00:06: They need to make the best of it!

00:00:08: It's no test-life which... And in a second live?

00:00:12: In this second life i do better.. No its just ONE LIFE and then you need to do it actively ..and it is not about surviving ,it really living it.

00:00:26: Welcome everyone to the Beyond Outcomes podcast.

00:00:29: My name is Andreas Boist, I'm CEO here at GCP Service and today we have a very special guest with us, Andreas Grundt.

00:00:35: Andreas for those of you that don't know he's the founder of GCP service And He also an overall excellent person to discuss.

00:00:44: clinical research in general Of course has many other facets from doing a lot rather extreme sports To being business angel apparent, and of course integrating also the next generation to your own office in business at home.

00:00:59: So there are lots of topics around clinical research and business itself as a ties tool developing new drugs and devices that we're going touch upon today.

00:01:10: but let's first jump back some twenty ish years into this starting period off how you even got to develop an interest for clinical research, where did you start out in and how did you learn of this space?

00:01:28: To begin with.

00:01:30: Yeah first thank you very much for inviting me.

00:01:32: honestly when you invited me I first thought why?

00:01:38: because i consider myself as the most boring person on the planet.

00:01:42: um... And you summarized everything already perfectly.

00:01:46: so uh yeah maybe add some more details about it.

00:01:52: So how did I come into clinic research?

00:02:18: Everybody knew the solution, how you can treat these kids better or society in general was better but nobody did it.

00:02:28: It has much more to do with education than really nutrition and physical activity because we have a clear correlation between education and economical background.

00:02:44: then nutritional behavior or how much they move and how much TV, these are factors of course but usually there are different factors more stronger than just changing the eating habits.

00:03:02: And because it became boring for me my PhD was quite successful I need to add.

00:03:09: so i finished that with sumakum laude won a prize for the best PhD thesis in that year.

00:03:22: And so on, it was not successful which was boring.

00:03:27: but this solution to resolve problem was boring from me.

00:03:32: and then I thought...I don't want stay at university i need change into industry because experience already is really clinic research and human beings.

00:03:48: So the step to clinic research for CIO was quite small for me, then I changed from university first to an American large CIO, Omnicare Clinic Research and later on a Scottish CIO in the West Research.

00:04:09: And i learned there lot how professionals are doing clinical.

00:04:16: I saw also the opposite to The University.

00:04:19: Actually, they guys at The Universities always consider themselves as a best researcher but afterwards i can say that the industry is doing much better jobs because they are getting controlled and expected answer on in these guys at the universities especially for non-regulated academic studies.

00:04:40: there not control it all And therefore, sometimes I'm sure they are making their own data.

00:04:46: Which is of course not good clinic research.

00:04:50: and that's actually the beginning.

00:04:52: my CO background.

00:04:57: How come you started in international companies first?

00:05:00: Was there a market for like European or even German contract research organization at the time?

00:05:05: was it coincidental?

00:05:08: And were there specific countries that you covered as we started?

00:05:12: Well, actually it was at the time in nineteen ninety-nine when I started my first job of the year where a lot of academics had no jobs.

00:05:25: They could drive taxi or do something other crazy jobs and We still looked into newspaper to find job advertisements And of course, the largest year olds they had their money for big advertisements.

00:05:44: There was a reason probably why I applied for these jobs first and my first job i could really choose because of my background Because Of My Experience... ...and I decided for Omnicare.. ..and then I went to Bram because They Searched For Somebody could cover the northern German area.

00:06:11: I could also go to Hamburg or do another Hanover, for example and i thought actually that Brim has a very good cost-benefit profile for me And therefore there was reason why I moved to Brim then at that time.

00:06:31: So you know ICHGCP was relatively new when it started.

00:06:37: So, how were early days in clinical research for global contract research organizations and the shifts?

00:06:45: In terms of developing processes, developing systems.

00:06:50: And alignment also with regulatory expectations, internal drive telling clients to implement this new standards as they are evolving.

00:07:01: what was that from the earlier days on?

00:07:05: Yeah, you're completely right.

00:07:06: GCP was new but not for the CRO world and also not for big global pharma companies And these companies were usually clients of larger CEOs.

00:07:19: So I worked with really big company But we did large studies with GPs.

00:07:29: They have never heard anything about GCP or data protection.

00:07:33: And when I look back now how we have done studies at that time, it was not inspection ready and We would not test any inspection anymore.

00:07:47: And we will not get any market approval for any drug which developed at the time.

00:07:53: It changed so much.

00:07:57: Much stricter nowadays.

00:07:59: At that time yeah Yeah!

00:08:01: We had GCP and the law yet.

00:08:07: And more or less, there was a people who documented data did that test with human beings.

00:08:14: they didn't know anything about GCP.

00:08:17: That's fact.

00:08:19: So everything what was done prior to I would say two thousand four when i also found a gcp source by the way Was against regulations?

00:08:32: It worked somehow that the drugs were bad, efficacy was not there or safety wasn't there.

00:08:41: That was all okay but it was not compliant according to GCP regulations and so

00:08:48: on.".

00:08:50: And what do you think?

00:08:52: It was the main driver for change here.

00:08:55: More stringent regulatory control, defining in more detail what really required.

00:09:00: or is this just a natural evolution over time that you say trials these days are even back in two thousand four and then years after I run more compliantly?

00:09:13: Actually it's changed.

00:09:16: in EU regulations I mean, in two thousand four all EU member states needed to implement GCP into the national regulations.

00:09:25: And then GCP became part of law and Of course there was freedom or interpretation.

00:09:33: how strict countries are?

00:09:37: We in Germany always extremely strict in terms of regulations.

00:09:42: other countries were less strict but people needed to be more compliant, otherwise they would act against law.

00:09:55: And of course the consequence is much harder than just being non-compliant with a guideline which was on one hand good for us especially from this year.

00:10:12: At that time I worked as a CIA, as a project manager.

00:10:15: It was very hard to say an investigator you need do it!

00:10:21: You actually must do it this way.

00:10:25: and then they're saying oh just the guideline but from two thousand four onwards we could say no now you MUST DO IT because its part of the law.

00:10:37: And then...you switched also in twenty-four.

00:10:41: Let me do something on my own.

00:10:43: What was sort of like the key that sparked this flame?

00:10:47: And you were saying, I want to bit my one's thing... Was it already envisioned as you started into clinical research or came up during your years in global CROs ?

00:11:00: Actually first ...I'm very grateful for learning a lot about big CRO and of course i learned good things what could need or what I can use later on, but also learned that it's not my way of working.

00:11:20: For me the purpose for work was always to serve other clients and make them out-of-everything so they could be happy.

00:11:33: That wasn't because Big CEO wanted big money!

00:11:38: That's the reason why they are big.

00:11:42: They have a little bit of sometimes, I would say, narcissistic approach where like their QM system and think that their SOPs are best And really tell your client we must work according to our QM systems with our technologies and so on do it in a way which fits best to our client.

00:12:13: Now sometimes, Our SOPs are the best for it.

00:12:17: Sometimes The SOP of a client is perfect For this study.

00:12:22: Sometimes It's a mixture.

00:12:24: The same with EDC system technologies and so on And that was always my approach.

00:12:30: So Client first and then for them Was me First and then the client.

00:12:38: And

00:12:41: there was a reason why I thought also for, not everybody but big clients wouldn't say that we at GCP servers are best partner.

00:12:53: But from many clients our approach is better than working with CIO Big, large global CEO.

00:13:04: Now naturally If you start a company, You have to start small and you'll start with yourself first as an individual.

00:13:13: And basically...you've got a lot of knowledge.

00:13:16: but I guess you need to tackle a couple topics in parallel your first client some process descriptions like organizing and structuring yourselves logistically as a company registering it seeing how we can manage that The processes.

00:13:36: you had some experience, but how was it?

00:13:38: sort of like tackling all these topics at once and where they're evolving challenges as you started out in the first few years?

00:13:48: Actually reflecting back now.

00:13:52: When I said that I have experienced knowledge or didn't know anything about tuning... It's a question!

00:14:00: ...I also felt quite naive to start a company And it was no company at the beginning.

00:14:06: It wasn't a one-man show, actually and in the beginning also my assumption is I work as a start freelance lab.

00:14:17: let's see if that works or not.

00:14:19: i can always go back to CRO so there are very little risks for me.

00:14:25: but then I got more requests than I could handle alone.

00:14:33: Then we could not handle.

00:14:34: it was two of us then I had that fact an employee and so We have grown step by step.

00:14:41: And That wasn't beginning, and off course.

00:14:44: It also quite busy time because now needed to set up a QM system as a piece and so on.

00:14:51: Of course Was a quiet small set of SOPs with about twenty sps.

00:14:59: in general Everything was very simple, very pragmatic and it worked somehow.

00:15:10: And I think the most important thing is building trust because clients don't trust you so easily when they say that your a one-man show even though you add two persons still too small to make them happy with their future study.

00:15:33: It worked somehow, we built trust.

00:15:36: We did not disappoint them and so step by step we have grown.

00:15:44: And in the beginning I was full of energy.

00:15:48: I mean i was traveling for days a week when I was flying I've written SOPs or at the airport and just slept less which was okay that time As I said, already full of energy and therefore it was every day.

00:16:08: I enjoyed at that time And It's like with kids actually small kids produce more problems and bigger kids Produce bigger problems.

00:16:19: and i would say when we had then around fifty sixty employees There the problem got huge not in the beginning Because It was all manageable, even with one leadership person that it wasn't just me.

00:16:40: I didn't need to discuss anything or find agreements because there were no meetings and it wouldn't make sense.

00:16:50: And therefore in the beginning what's more interesting is simple really uninteresting, but it changed more to the big CIO world.

00:17:11: Even so GCP service is no big global CIO.

00:17:14: But we talked then about us and our needs of clients which was actually a trigger for finding companies.

00:17:27: And was there sort of like a threshold, I don't know.

00:17:30: You floated at fifty-sixty but... There's a gradient so usually you say an inch or ten as far?

00:17:35: Well

00:17:35: i could not say that it is twenty or thirty.

00:17:39: You realize also when your first crisis I would say one bigger project stops and you need to be flexible and take care that people have enough to do.

00:17:55: And this enough to do, don't need to be the most interesting job.

00:17:59: I can still remember we had a big project for bigger company and influencer study in children huge program through several years... ...and every year they were not successful or together did not find enough patience.

00:18:23: So we needed to continue every year and at a certain point, upper management of the company said no.

00:18:29: We stopped the program.

00:18:32: around ten people on our team worked in that project.

00:18:37: so from one day until next I need it for ten new projects which i did not have.

00:18:45: luckily The sponsor wanted to be responsible for the trial master file and nobody of them took care as a trial master files for several years.

00:18:57: And then they called me, Andreas we have problem with big mess in our TMF.

00:19:03: actually We don't have it here.

00:19:04: can you help?

00:19:05: Me and I said Of course we love to help you.

00:19:09: yeah transfer everything.

00:19:12: You had to walk into our office.

00:19:16: It was tons of paper actually that transferred to our office.

00:19:21: And then my ten people without a project anymore needed to take care of the TMF and there was really a bullshit job, yeah That was awful boring.

00:19:32: every day The same.

00:19:32: it lasted several months which gave me the chance To find a new project for them But for them are very boring time.

00:19:44: I also lost some of my team members, you know?

00:19:46: Because it was too boring for them.

00:19:48: They didn't understand that they had a nice project and now they need to do boring stuff.

00:19:53: but as part of the game... ...I also couldn't see any solution in order to make this better For them.. ..I'm happy with that.

00:20:03: i didn't have to fire anybody!

00:20:05: I am happy about being able pay them every month after the TMF job we have enough projects again to continue.

00:20:19: Yeah, that's of course rough and it is much different if you are alone than when you have a small team?

00:20:26: But afterwards offcourse when your succeeded its even better!

00:20:31: And now I am laughing but at this time sometimes i also sleep less nights.

00:20:39: You founded the company in two thousand four.

00:20:41: there was big market crisis.

00:20:44: How was that for you?

00:20:45: At what size was GCP service and did you feel it impacted probably less than other markets, but how is from your perspective.

00:20:53: Yeah honestly I think bad... ...I founded the company during a crisis because at end of last century we had internet crisis which lasted a couple of years.

00:21:07: So when I found it and in two thousand four, we were still in the middle off the crisis, Which was good because The unemployment rate was quite high lot of good educated people search for job.

00:21:22: so actually at that moment It's not easy to find somebody When you say hi i'm a company And I searched first employee But it made it easier because we were in a crisis.

00:21:36: So every crisis also provides opportunities.

00:21:40: and I took it, you know?

00:21:42: I found my first people... And when your group then of three four or five people than that's all so easy to find the six and seven and eight.

00:21:50: Um two thousand eight was The Real Estate Crisis which has had not the biggest impact on us.

00:21:59: i wouldn't say It was a different topic in terms of inflation and so on.

00:22:08: The impact on the whole industry wasn't that big.

00:22:13: Covid, of course, is also very interesting case because most companies suffered and GCP Service and the COO actually profited from covid pumped it into the market.

00:22:32: And from one day to the next, also our clients had cheap money which they could put in clinical research and there have started studies where I would not start prior to COVID- and also a couple of years later really high risk studies.

00:22:56: financially the best year of GCP service.

00:23:01: So actually, but that also means you need to learn how to read the market which factors have an influence on the market.

00:23:15: so the global liquidity and interest rates everything has impact in your future Business model and that's important to learn.

00:23:29: It is not only about clinical research, especially not German politics.

00:23:36: German politics don't matter at all for our business.

00:23:42: it's more the global thing because we want to run or running global studies.

00:23:49: most of our clients are not Germans but global companies.

00:23:54: And this perspective you gained then The longer you steered the GCP service ship over those years, or was it something that you had prior experiences?

00:24:05: Or through education and family already a proclivity to know.

00:24:10: actually I My family That's in that way has no academic background.

00:24:19: Um i come from A very Simple Family.

00:24:26: I was the first person who could study at a university and made PhD later on, so that wasn't background.

00:24:35: My family taught me actually street cleverness for what i'm also very grateful because it's I consider as extremely important in life.

00:24:47: I was interested in investments, actually at the stocks market where we early and already as a student with of course very little money.

00:25:02: And then you learn a little bit how all the markets develops depending on their asset or interest rates.

00:25:10: and so it changed lot compared to thirty years ago but still the basic principles are still true.

00:25:22: Now, if we jump back a little bit into the GCP Service Development one of things that you did along the path was also form companies belonging to the GCB Service Group with BCQ Pilots.

00:25:35: You formed ACROSS as an association and one step down the line later on what's also merging with Leningklinger Research?

00:25:44: three very well I think Two of them, I think very different directions.

00:25:49: One is very technology focused the other two are more for running international clinical trials.

00:25:56: Let's start with the technology approach.

00:25:59: How did you perceive?

00:26:01: The need for development of technology within the clinical research sphere at that time?

00:26:09: because this was You know in these days, it's quite natural.

00:26:13: It is very ingrained but at the time when you started everything was still more paper-based.

00:26:17: Was that for you?

00:26:17: Very clear.

00:26:18: we need to automate and Everything will be digitized more And for this reason it's an early opportunity.

00:26:23: or was a reflection of GCP service needs two worlds.

00:26:26: This where we start.

00:26:28: Let me first add something.

00:26:30: When I said that i developed gcq pilots The funny thing Is... own agenda as CEO that I wanted to develop one thing per year from the beginning.

00:26:47: So something really should be a milestone, not show anybody anything because just make sure i'm getting bored by my job cause im getting bored quite easily.

00:27:02: so it needed interesting for me.

00:27:06: I tried always to develop something new, a new service and you technology.

00:27:10: A new association in your facility in the New Country.

00:27:16: every year some think just to make it still interesting for me.

00:27:21: And there was also...I think that technological approach was just a coincidence because i met a guy who is good at programming And I asked him to program something for me, To access the working time of my people easily.

00:27:45: He did it and was a very robust system.

00:27:48: nowadays Of course It's not up-to date anymore would be obsolete but at that time is really good simple and it was extremely easy to produce an invoice with seconds, which was I loved it.

00:28:09: And at one evening we were sitting together and told him a little bit about my ideas how Tenecubi's search will change what we need so on...and he said oh maybe we can do something.

00:28:32: our idea to program our own CTMS system.

00:28:38: And it was also very successful, yeah?

00:28:41: We could do with just two people.

00:28:44: I brought the GCP or the clinic research ideas into this system.

00:28:50: here are programming ideas where we fast race actually work all very smoothly and had a good system for couple of months together.

00:29:02: Of course we had a lot of updates later on, but the idea of measuring risk getting alerts and so on was very early.

00:29:14: And it worked well!

00:29:15: We used it... ...and everything was perfect.

00:29:22: That's actually the end of this video.

00:29:26: Honestly in the mean time I would say that we were even too early on market Because we talked about risk management already many years prior to ICH E version two.

00:29:43: So where they, the first time they spoke really about risk-management in GCP and at that time nobody understood risk management.

00:29:55: And i think most of people still don't understand risk management By the way, because they have been taught many years don't take any risk.

00:30:06: Cover your own ass otherwise it's bad for you career and so on.

00:30:11: And we very early said no a lot of data in our study doesn't mean anything.

00:30:19: You measure something without meaning.

00:30:23: just produce work.

00:30:25: There are lots of protocol deviations which is not important.

00:30:30: And if something is incorrect and concomitment medication, I don't care because we make any analysis anyway.

00:30:42: So why do you care?

00:30:43: Why do you control it?

00:30:48: Not just say... It's a very minimal risk so that we don't worry about it.

00:30:57: As I said, we were too early.

00:30:59: People didn't understand it and they said oh... ...I don't like this magic thing.

00:31:05: You are coming from the medical device industry because They spoke about risk management very earlier already And the drug industry doesn't believe in that.

00:31:15: So a couple of years later Everybody talked about it.

00:31:22: Now everybody is talking but Very little people really understand what it means.

00:31:29: I concur.

00:31:33: Let's stay with study conduct a little bit, we'll recapture that topic after and let's move to the second pillar of GCP development internationalization naturally headquartered here in Bremen Germany.

00:31:46: you already conducted trials outside mentioned every year should be my stone.

00:31:50: also look at offices.

00:31:55: But there are two different approaches to it.

00:31:57: The one is let's grow ourselves and let's cover other territories with our own offices, And then There was the approach of forming an association and talking With other companies that already covered a region.

00:32:09: for me partnerships that are Fundamentally going beyond what just appear vendor.

00:32:15: so how did you decide on which?

00:32:20: Which approach he would favor at which stage of the company, and why do you believe in sort like a partnership model?

00:32:29: Or did you believe it that time so strongly already.

00:32:33: It's actually a mixture.

00:32:34: first I liked to try things out.

00:32:38: i'd like To open an office somewhere And if doesn't work then we will close again.

00:32:47: Then I think to open an offices The kaija is very important.

00:32:51: So when I think that the person who could lead the office in a certain country has similar culture compared to us, then i'm quite sure it will work.

00:33:07: Like Poland for example an employee worked here for couple of years and asked her do you like open offices?

00:33:18: In Poland.

00:33:19: so moving back because Believe in you, I trust you.

00:33:25: You are the right

00:33:26: person.".

00:33:27: She was extremely happy and it works.

00:33:29: but whereas other countries or regions of the world, I would say that Kaisa is so different from even the big ones like Amazon for example we're not successful to open an Amazon in China.

00:33:47: no chance.

00:33:49: they tried it.

00:33:52: It makes sense because culture is completely different.

00:33:54: It's not a matter of language, it's cultural problem.

00:33:59: and then I would say we should also try even the American cultures so different to us And price differences are too different to ours.

00:34:11: Then explaining our people why people in the US Are getting a salary which is double yours but We still consider you as more clever.

00:34:23: That's really difficult to understand for them and therefore, I think sometimes it makes sense in your own office where you trust people or can develop the same values and culture of your headquarter And some times that make more sense too.

00:34:42: keep companies with different cultures separately but partner with them.

00:34:49: Now this thing Fascinating over the idea behind the Association of International CROs, ACROSS is that you are looking for people who want a long-term partner and have the same mindset.

00:35:05: It makes sense?

00:35:09: Similar mindset but once further than just having a vendor by saying there's an on compete we're not going to expand into your territory.

00:35:18: so this requires a level of collaboration that you don't really see too much in business because if people feel to strongly attached to their own company and opportunities, they might have.

00:35:29: In the future.

00:35:30: I'm moving forward but was it never challenging point?

00:35:36: It

00:35:38: wasn't.

00:35:39: And i think sometimes its still so.

00:35:43: im not so much on wolf anymore As as founder of iCross, first president for I think eight years.

00:35:55: Um...I needed to be a role model for that-that I really even need to build up trust with an iCros so people really trust me and they have not the feeling that I cheat them.

00:36:12: but clinical trials are complicated.

00:36:15: you speak alot lot with clients potential clients from different countries and there's a lot of noise.

00:36:23: And sometimes you build up trust for couple years, then... You lose everything with the second because somebody talked around your back something which was not one hundred percent true!

00:36:40: That can also happen in iCross.

00:36:42: it happens every sports team In The Family so on.

00:36:47: I think that is most most difficult part of iCross, because the whole iCros family is quite big.

00:36:57: I was all employees in the ICROS and we at GCP Service even put money into this system so that it survived In the beginning.

00:37:11: It's very difficult to keep running Because when you were out of money We had not enough projects.

00:37:19: Not clients did not believe in the idea of iCross.

00:37:26: And we put money there also just to build up the trust through the iCrosse members, so see if you give them any and don't want get anything back for it?

00:37:39: It's just too.

00:37:41: let-it run!

00:37:43: That was a very difficult time.

00:37:46: therefore I... For me is important that say similar

00:37:50: culture.

00:37:51: It's not the same, you know?

00:37:53: I'm sure that not every ICROSS member would put money into this system just to let it run.

00:38:00: but i was a big believer in the that at work.

00:38:05: yeah That we together are stronger than as single CO and We don't want to shoot anybody.

00:38:13: But then main purpose was again To make our clients happy And sometimes I cross-members need to understand that they are not part of this project because your country does not make the client happy.

00:38:36: That's it, yeah?

00:38:37: It is not against our country but for its clients!

00:38:45: what I

00:38:50: have assumed.

00:38:52: Right, and so let's move this discussion over to the clinical trial stage.

00:38:58: we already touched it on several points from guidance to regulation ,from technology absence or technology-rich clinical trials no risk management a lot of risk management.

00:39:10: you have lets say twenty five years off clinical trial history within the key changes that you observed or tendencies across their time for good and worse.

00:39:26: Yeah, I think there are two points.

00:39:29: let's start with a good one electronic data capture.

00:39:35: nowadays when i speak from the time prior to EDC it is like your grandfather talks about the same world war but its not that long ago.

00:39:48: We, the first couple of years we still worked with paper CRS and needed to collect them.

00:39:56: And they produced a lot of queries... ...and then we need go back with paper-based queries to the side where I had to answer the query.

00:40:08: It was tons of papers.

00:40:10: sometimes this table of papers went back to the investigator you need to answer it.

00:40:17: And then we had queries like, they are not legible please write again.

00:40:21: and there were.

00:40:22: so pissed off!

00:40:24: You could see in the answers that they answered like... ...you're no medical doctor or I don't have time to answer these questions.

00:40:36: So what was the consequence?

00:40:39: They got re-queries Again.

00:40:43: tons of papers went back to the university with a re-query on query which was caused by the first data and I was very time-consuming.

00:40:54: It is not very helpful to build up a good relationship with your investigator, but at the end it was still a very funny.

00:41:16: We are pissed off because of the bad ECS, which is also understandable.

00:41:21: or when I think about The first Electronic patient reported outcomes.

00:41:27: we were working with palms and our palms not young people don't know pines anymore.

00:41:33: It was it was similar to old mobile phones And but they lost connections.

00:41:42: Yeah, and then that patients should enter data into a diary, but they didn't have any connection.

00:41:49: So I could not write data anymore.

00:41:51: so we were losing data and the investigators were frustrated again.

00:41:58: And it was...I think that transfer from paper to ECF was very hard time for the whole industry To convince people that will work And that at a certain point, it was better.

00:42:14: Nowadays when I even would ask experienced CIA can you still remember the papers here?

00:42:26: Which paper did you need to collect?

00:42:28: which paper needs to stay at the site?

00:42:30: probably most of them can't answer anymore because yeah its no fifteen twenty years ago and more for fifteen i will say Anyway, that was the biggest pro.

00:42:45: and the negative side I think is really the increasing bureaucratism.

00:42:55: The over documentation of things which are not important.

00:43:01: it changed a little bit.

00:43:02: now i think even the authorities want or tried to change with ICH e-six.

00:43:10: revision two also was revision three, which is has not the biggest added value.

00:43:17: I would say it's just underlining.

00:43:20: now we really want you to focus on them more important things but still...I can remember meetings in QA team.

00:43:32: so when i went to conferences and the qa people talked about how from FDA in two hours about how to complete a document required and the US.

00:43:52: And if we also need to come completed an Europe, and so on.

00:43:59: it was So unimportant for for the clinical trial world.

00:44:05: but they spent ours because It Was About Them it was about their requirements, about the process.

00:44:13: Their needs and jobs were bullshit!

00:44:17: It wasn't about patients or clients but good projects... And that is the most negative thing.

00:44:29: I think it has not resolved.

00:44:31: so there's a tendency to make things easier again.

00:44:35: But when you learn differently for so many years, it needs more than one generation.

00:44:42: You know from politics after socialism you need more then one generation.

00:44:47: that socialism is not part of the mind anymore and people who have grown up in socialistic

00:44:55: countries.".

00:44:57: That's the same with when you require bullshit for more than twenty years on a business – the bullshit will keep your mind for more or even longer.

00:45:13: That's challenging, because at the end of day you have to manage multiple people's expectations.

00:45:19: You can say I don't think it is necessary but let us streamline that.

00:45:22: But then one thing in the end as we said mindset for team members.

00:45:27: if they had experienced before how this should be done you will have clients' expectations.

00:45:34: if it's not documented to a certain extent, then it cannot be accurate.

00:45:37: So we need to push in a little bit more effort.

00:45:39: you have regulators expectations that look at and say but five years ago I've seen like this or someone else has documented fifteen pages.

00:45:47: why do only so much?

00:45:49: It was comment also on one of our inspections.

00:45:55: sorry for study off the size... I mean there were only twenty sites forty-five patients, but they said yeah we expect fifteen to twenty thousand documents.

00:46:06: Like what are you supposed document like that?

00:46:07: I mean everything should be digital and streamlined.

00:46:11: it's like sure i can file every email send But...and..I make a form out of all the things I do where I can file one thousand notifiers if you want too!

00:46:20: What is purpose?

00:46:21: And this purpose driven sometimes really tough communication.

00:46:26: because my mindset is just I need volume Because volume tells me its good irrespective of what its purpose is.

00:46:33: Yeah, that's what I meant with street cleverness What i learned from my parents.

00:46:38: when it doesn't make sense don't do It yeah.

00:46:41: but other people like When you have a bad inspector No strict cleverness at all.

00:46:49: and then they say no But we have seen during the last twenty years in That way.

00:46:53: so Do it In that Way?

00:46:54: It Doesn't Make Sense.

00:46:57: Anyway...I want to see it that way.

00:47:00: It's tough to argue.

00:47:01: Yeah, it's tough.

00:47:04: So how do you?

00:47:05: How do you ingrain that from a leadership perspective into your people?

00:47:09: because obviously You know especially as a CEO or is the department leader is your job To ensure That you keep a balance.

00:47:20: Yes, you have to be regulatory compliant and there are outside influences.

00:47:24: let say outside means outside of your Department can be on.

00:47:27: QA team can be another team that says I need more like structured communication to me.

00:47:32: It can be client, regulators whatever.

00:47:35: so there's lots of influences.

00:47:36: that will I think at any point.

00:47:40: it's easier to ask for more than first discuss and justify.

00:47:46: hey is this enough?

00:47:48: do we really need more?

00:47:49: So how do you ingrain that as a mindset to first reflect upon the needs then implement especially if you have different cultures mindsets coming together.

00:48:02: I think the only way is repetition, you need to repeat it and always ask for why?

00:48:10: Why do you want to document that?

00:48:14: It starts with how to write a file note.

00:48:21: when i see file notes in a trial master file which says this document is not fired What do you want to explain with this file node?

00:48:34: Yeah, that document is not fired.

00:48:36: When it's not filed I see it without your file note.

00:48:40: what does the added value of a file note?

00:48:45: and they can't explain me.

00:48:49: but then when you repeat it and train in workshops They realize... ...what i mean To also get rid off these bullshit work.

00:49:00: And in clinic research, we have so many things which are really just waste of time and they need to learn it.

00:49:10: don't complain about too much work but try to reduce your work by skipping all this wasted task.

00:49:22: Do you think there will be an issue with that to a certain extent, if technology progresses forward.

00:49:28: So one of the things we are currently discussing here and they're sort-of why do spot checks?

00:49:34: If you know... A program could now do a hundred percent check on the TMF for any document that might be expected or missing and what not?

00:49:42: And as humans go in there saying no it's fine risk based We look at important things then but stop caring about them.

00:49:51: If you come from a technology point of view, to the point that one hundred percent of a trial can always be checked.

00:49:58: I feel this would rather drive optimization in the last two percent than checking if eighty percent are

00:50:06: accurate.".

00:50:24: where people discussed about checking the source data after correcting data in this CRF again and making sure that the source date is audit-trailed.

00:50:44: And when I heard it, oh some want to make money with wasted time And that's the same with artificial intelligence.

00:50:57: You can produce new work which produces turnover, makes some people more profitable and others are losing money.

00:51:11: I would do a spot check on AI like this before and then do spots checks of the AI But in a reduced manner, then you save time.

00:51:27: You still can show that your don't relied on artificial intelligence one hundred percent but just reduce it at the end to reduce your work and keep the quality.

00:51:44: And Then a regulator comes in and says give me access ahead of an inspection throws an AI edit gives you list off.

00:51:52: here are I don't know four hundred documents I would have expected, which i can currently not account for.

00:51:59: or there's issues in the footer of the header of the document.

00:52:04: The quality of the scanned signature page isn't adequate and it wasn't in your initial scope.

00:52:11: this is where here down the line we might end up because formally it may be a requirement But it's not really important for the overall quality of the trial that we again move into a space where regulatory burden will be increased simply because there is an opportunity to, let say remark everything.

00:52:32: Yeah but you don't need to speak about it.

00:52:34: if inspectors want to find something they'll find something.

00:52:37: yeah If their approach I would say its wrong approach and i had seen inspectors who count the number of protocols.

00:52:50: And then they saw, oh one page is missing and but their page was just filed in the investigator's side file.

00:52:59: it was a very unimportant page actually that wasn't missing.

00:53:04: big trouble finding because nobody looked into the protocol anyway.

00:53:10: yeah The investigators had that protocol somewhere else or the cupboard and so on.

00:53:14: Nobody look to the investigator site files anymore and they made a big finding of it.

00:53:21: When is their approach?

00:53:22: Their approach, we can't change that.

00:53:25: I would not tell my people.

00:53:26: then make sure you count every page of the protocol in future and file at one hundred investor data site files.

00:53:34: nowadays we use e-investigator sidefiles anyway.

00:53:37: It cannot happen any more.

00:53:39: but there idea if they want to find something They'll find some thing very easily.

00:53:46: Yeah, indeed.

00:53:50: And sometimes not very often anymore but sometime I'm still doing audits and... ...I could find so many more findings document them by the end of day.

00:54:05: they are really important.

00:54:07: why should i document something that's not important?

00:54:10: just because to show how good I am as an auditor?

00:54:21: mindset and approach differentiation.

00:54:23: And we like the color model.

00:54:25: for that reason, I think you have a certain mindset also with lots of people who would like to work in jobs which are more about control or review... ...that may be having higher tendency to want everything complete and accountable.. ..and one hundred percent aligned Which I think, you know as a founder and business person.

00:54:48: You need to focus on the important eighty percent that drives it forward.

00:54:51: also which...

00:54:52: First this and secondly i think A lot has to do with ego.

00:54:58: How?

00:54:59: Do we want To be seen?

00:55:01: And..I could also imagine That some people would consider me as lazy When my audit report is not Ten pages long or even longer With twenty findings.

00:55:13: I think he did not the best job.

00:55:17: He didn't find enough, but i don't care if they consider me lazy... They think im lazy!

00:55:26: But Im fine with that..but can imagine when you are an inspector nobody wants to be seen as lazy because The whole world thinks When You Work For The Government You Are Lazy.

00:55:39: That Might Be The Reason.

00:55:45: And even there, of course you have very different people.

00:55:48: but when we are looking at the average and you cannot predict it.

00:55:51: You have to work towards some amount of risk avoidance that sometimes can lead through over-documenting or working making trials more complex less accessible... At the end of day slow down progress on new drugs and devices.

00:56:18: Only patients.

00:56:23: Cool, let's shift gears a little bit slightly away from clinical research and talk more about sort of like what happened after GCP service.

00:56:33: now you decided at then for my perspective early stage to say Let me hand over the business.

00:56:43: I believe from everything that you've shared already today, we get a good picture of your mindset and what sort like drives you.

00:56:50: And it seems conclusive that he would eventually move on and say hey let me turn towards new goals.

00:56:56: but how was the transition for you?

00:56:59: When did they thought to Fifty is enough, rather than the average German at seventy.

00:57:07: I have traveled with my business because everything still depends on me.

00:57:11: Your mindset was very different Empowering getting a new generation on board early and then also taking step back.

00:57:18: How did that thought ripen in you?

00:57:21: And came to point where he said okay it's time consider moving on.

00:57:29: It's good question.

00:57:31: Of course there wasn't matter of time.

00:57:34: Also, it was not from one day to the next.

00:57:37: As you said already I do a lot of sports and when you're doing sport and compete against other people like in career long we have age groups yeah?

00:57:46: And my age group is still very fast but compared with age groups twenty years younger i'm quite slow because they have more energy They are fitter And in business, we don't have age groups.

00:58:09: But I think it would be wise for many older CEOs to understand that they are not as good anymore than twenty years ago because the energy is no longer flexible any more.

00:58:27: of course there's experience but isn't this an experience which makes them the CEO?

00:58:33: That's a question!

00:58:35: Would it not be better when you're experienced to being an advisor and all the CEO?

00:58:42: I for myself could just say that i had a feeling, That When Im getting older.

00:58:48: I'm Not The Best CO Anymore And I Wanted To Have The Best C.O For My Baby Or GCP Service And Therefore I Made The Decisions Very Early.

00:58:59: I Need To Find Somebody Better Earlier Than Too Late And I see it very often also in politics, that people really... They're so long on their position just because they love themselves.

00:59:19: Their positions, death status is much and there was never my idea!

00:59:26: I wasn't interested into being a CEO but the company developed healthy when the CEO needs to be exchanged, and I've thought it was a good time.

00:59:42: And... The results... Confirms that!

00:59:50: It speaks lots of points you mentioned earlier about ego.

00:59:56: You don't attach your ego in position or status.

01:00:00: This is very easy to fall into.

01:00:03: I have a role, so my self-worth is defined by the roles that are exhibited in the organization.

01:00:09: And taking it step back and saying someone else can wear their title takes away from people's definition of themselves.

01:00:19: It seems you've got ways to define your self worth outside of a title which might make things easier.

01:00:26: For sure!

01:00:27: A CEO was for many years my title but also not my identity.

01:00:34: No, I was much more sportsman parent friend than CEO.

01:00:41: And I can still doing all these other things together with now being advisor investor business angel whatever they call me.

01:00:50: sometimes even people say i'm retired for someone just retired and but yeah...I don't care.

01:01:01: so did that make the transition easy for you at that time?

01:01:06: Or was it still hard to say, okay I step back and i'm more observant than driving because there's twenty years or eighteen years of pushing so much energy into the company moving forward.

01:01:22: And then sort-of let go.

01:01:25: yes with a certain transition phase as well but how did?

01:01:33: It was extremely easy because I knew you.

01:01:37: Um, I thank You!

01:01:39: I taught you everything what i know of course not everything um Because so much older.

01:01:49: But I trusted you if I could be of help that you call me contact Me ask me and then I'm still there.

01:01:59: it's Not That I am out Of the room or that I've died, was still there if you need help.

01:02:07: So my trust was so big and it got hand-overed... ...that i said no everything works well.. ..i have to do a lot of other things.

01:02:18: fine!

01:02:19: For me it was extremely easy.

01:02:22: Surprisingly alot people asked the same question If Im not scared?

01:02:27: And your baby?

01:02:28: and so on.

01:02:31: No And now four years later, everybody says oh it was the right step and so on.

01:02:39: but It was already in the beginning when I founded a company.

01:02:43: The same people said ah you had good job Good salary.

01:02:47: why do we have this risk?

01:02:50: Then after hand over and getting out of operational business Why are they doing that?

01:02:56: You did well Everything worked very well.

01:03:01: And now they say the same again.

01:03:04: It's... Yeah, don't listen to people.

01:03:09: Follow your heart!

01:03:11: Okay?

01:03:11: I mean that is great advice.

01:03:15: maybe from that perspective also how did you sort of like during the phase off?

01:03:21: what different stages in life define success?

01:03:24: or Is there even a concept that you attach yourself to in any means, surely from a sport point of view.

01:03:31: But as the company... That must have also looked very different for you from founding it?

01:03:36: To having twenty people or one hundred to handing over the company.

01:03:41: and did that perception of success change with your?

01:03:45: Or does it feel like a continuum?

01:03:50: What do I define as success?

01:03:57: It's definitely a question!

01:04:01: Of course i make plans and assume something that I reach something.

01:04:09: And when we reached really in time, make people happy then I would say success!

01:04:20: In clinical research it was always... When the client returns to me with a next project Then i will successful because they were so happy about our first service that they wanted to do repeat business with us.

01:04:38: And there was a success, it wasn't success if we took care of the product got on market because we had no real influence when our products are good enough and should not be in the market.

01:04:55: but as clients still have this feeling... They like work with me my team ,my people with communication that they had really the partnership feeling, that they trust us.

01:05:09: That was success.

01:05:10: and it's actually simple.

01:05:14: when their client returns another product then its success.

01:05:20: And you moved a lot into and mentioned advisory not only for us here at GCP Service but also other businesses or startups where this road and the path forward, finding yourselves and defining your path forward is still a little bit more unshaped.

01:05:40: Do you take that also away when you guide next generation as business angel?

01:05:46: Young entrepreneurs especially in medical devices of course who maybe don't have fully formed directionality what should they focus on most in the end?

01:06:02: Or is this something which you say, it's very specific to service provider industry and for that reason not as applicable.

01:06:07: Of course I try do it!

01:06:09: I mean...I never change when i speak with people or companies and start up somebody like their way but others don't like them.

01:06:20: But..i also dont want to become a second CEO of startup company.

01:06:25: I told you guys, always repeat your advice three times.

01:06:33: If the client doesn't listen they will learn it their hard way and that's the same with start-ups!

01:06:39: I repeated three times.

01:06:41: i would do in that way not on that way because its faster cheaper It is possible Its more pragmatic.

01:06:47: Usually its more pragmatic what i recommend to them.

01:06:53: but if they don´t like the pregnant or don't see the possibility of doing it more pragmatic, then they go their way.

01:07:03: And that's usually more expensive

01:07:06: slower

01:07:07: and so on.

01:07:08: The most simple thing is actually call them.

01:07:14: How often did I tell my people instead of sending millions of emails?

01:07:21: Call them!

01:07:24: If they continue to write email The next week I still said, I didn't get an answer.

01:07:30: And once again why did you call them?

01:07:33: Then you would have no answer.

01:07:36: and that's very similar situations we had with the start-up world.

01:07:43: So what is it that you look in for then when You come to the point of trying to invest now?

01:07:50: because Of course you have a wealth of experience In Kinect research so you can use as guidance And you support young entrepreneurs on their first steps, not only monetarily but also of course then through guidance as we've just noted.

01:08:06: What is it that catches your most about a pitch or team off?

01:08:12: People coming towards and saying hey this the idea.

01:08:15: what do have

01:08:15: people?

01:08:17: for me they're more important to find out in.

01:08:21: Do We Have Really A Team?

01:08:26: Diversity is very helpful when you have, for example one IT guy.

01:08:30: One comes from as a economical background maybe or marketing background.

01:08:37: it's helpful if all people are just IT People.

01:08:44: that's not the best situation.

01:08:47: It doesn't mean That its useless to invest in them but then You know you need to support them differently.

01:08:56: And sometimes I also need to tell myself, I actually can't help them.

01:09:05: Right?

01:09:06: It's not my expertise.

01:09:10: They are not good at it.

01:09:13: and but first is people...I really like them because when you want to help them work with them then it doesn't work.

01:09:30: Therefore team is the most important than their product, of course products are also important when I just like a team but they don't have good product and i also do not invest.

01:09:41: so what does that product make interesting for me?

01:09:46: Because there needs to be benefit When we speak about medical devices need to be beneficial for patients or physicians or healthcare in general, benefit is important than awareness.

01:10:01: Awareness also very important when it's one thousand times already on the market therefore makes so important for me AI to evaluate a solution at that moment.

01:10:13: because everybody speaks about AI.

01:10:15: every tool has AI and I'm not an expert which AI better then other.

01:10:24: I don't like to invest too much in AI.

01:10:27: From time-to-time, when the product behind the AI also makes sense.

01:10:32: but if they just say we have an AI tool which is doing that understand patterns and evaluate patterns... That's a idea of every AI.

01:10:44: who does this then i'm out!

01:10:47: So realness is important and scalability.

01:10:52: If you have just ten patients in Germany who are suffering this disease and want to treat, then it's not... Yeah.

01:11:01: Then you cannot make a business of it!

01:11:04: So first people, awareness benefit and scalability.

01:11:09: And if everything fits together I say okay let's try it Nowadays first with the smaller ticket and step by step i'm also able We invest as bridge investment or if I'm so much confident that it works, the team also develops.

01:11:31: As a team then i am willing to invest more.

01:11:39: And off of teams you have accompanied on your journey already what would say for medical device start-up companies is are sort of like typical pitfalls, which you see them struggling with?

01:11:54: Or does that?

01:11:56: or let's say Which other topics did you advise on the most to prevent them from running into in their development.

01:12:05: I think it was most profitable for them when i'm onboard as really the technical research topic because For then its a black box.

01:12:16: And what do people with black boxes try to avoid them?

01:12:20: Or, even worse they tried to solve the content of a black box by themselves.

01:12:29: Which is usually not possible when you never have done clinical studies and don't know what kind of approvals need how... ...to plan this study so on.

01:12:40: it's too complex!

01:12:44: That's also something.

01:12:45: they need to learn that.

01:12:46: They cannot do everything by themselves and then you have to learn how to outsource certain things for some topics, they all know it.

01:12:57: patterns For example.

01:12:58: go to a lawyer And get this done Texas Go to an tax advisor Get this done.

01:13:08: But for clinical studies first I try to avoid.

01:13:13: Then they realize that it needed nowadays because of MDR and then try to do by themselves.

01:13:22: That's a very typical problem, And sometimes I come on board and ask them questions... ...and understand even don't understand the question.

01:13:33: They might also have solution for this topic as well.

01:13:38: The study is done much faster!

01:13:42: The quality of data is much better.

01:13:45: And when you know people who no clinical research, You can also cover the next step marketing making sure that health insurance system like the data.

01:13:59: it's not only about performance and safety.

01:14:01: It's all so about how much money we save for using this medical device.

01:14:07: For them its important And then the coverage is easier to get and so on.

01:14:13: I mean, with a clinical research you can do so many things besides just getting a C-mark... ...and sometimes well also that's only company i think.. ..I really lost money.

01:14:28: one day want to go to US too early for get an FDA approval which was expensive time consuming.

01:14:39: Of course, also likes to cover their own market and deal with foreign EU startups differently than the own startup companies.

01:14:54: I would always recommend first make money in your country or region as big enough.

01:15:01: Make some money And then you can go into another region.

01:15:05: That will be my recommendation.

01:15:07: Of course, US is always attractive.

01:15:12: But when you don't have the money it's how I treat or educate my kids.

01:15:19: Yeah?

01:15:20: I mean holiday in Australia also attractive but if You Don't Have The Money, don't Do It.

01:15:28: Take Alone Is What The Banks Would Say.

01:15:31: yeah

01:15:32: of Course And That'S Also Something Very Important For Startups.

01:15:38: They Always Talk About Raising Money.

01:15:40: Raising Making money, it's so much better than raising money.

01:15:47: Then you show that you have produced value.

01:15:50: people are willing to pay money for the way you produce.

01:15:56: Raising money is... You promise something and based on your promises People are willing To invest in you but they usually want their money back.

01:16:06: That's a huge difference.

01:16:10: Emotionally, I mean it's so much different for the startup company.

01:16:14: For the founders

01:16:16: Yeah, put some fundraising puts a lot of pressure on them.

01:16:22: So is from your perspective there are the costs for the clinical development of products?

01:16:28: Underestimated still from startups and the timelines because i feel like usually It's quite our short-term not going to be expensive.

01:16:38: Generally, I think no.

01:16:42: Well...I think it really depends.

01:16:48: sometimes yes and sometimes no.

01:16:51: when you know how to do things.

01:16:54: things can cap cheap if you try first incorrectly correct it repair once again incorrectly time is running then its getting expensive.

01:17:08: that's what most of the companies are doing.

01:17:11: That makes it expensive.

01:17:13: When I ask you to repair my car at the end of today, It would be probably more expensive than bringing directly to the export.

01:17:23: Mm-hmm

01:17:24: a hundred percent.

01:17:25: Yeah You know it might also be more broken after I try that

01:17:30: yeah and then I bring into next but And they expert charge me again?

01:17:36: Yep.

01:17:36: Yeah, and more because you already made it worse Before you came to him.

01:17:44: Okay, last topic for me.

01:17:47: You mentioned it just now your kids on vacation in Australia.

01:17:50: I think this is really sort of teaching the next generation also a little bit of mindset.

01:17:54: you have your let's say home business In which you already involve your kids as well.

01:18:01: so and i know you're very active in educating them Also getting into position I don't know, responsibility already for businesses and making decisions on understanding the value of that.

01:18:18: How is their journey for you?

01:18:19: since they are?

01:18:20: maybe you can tell us about even the age spread of kids?

01:18:23: And how like different characters are.

01:18:26: what do think works doesn't work yet in terms getting them into a...

01:18:31: Yeah You're right!

01:18:33: I made my investment company real family offers with my wife and four kids on board, the kids are between eighteen and twenty-four.

01:18:44: And when you say I like to educate them it's not like at school where i'm sitting there and teach them every day.

01:18:52: uh but I...I like to improve them in making decisions already because I think The question would be if the parents don't do it who else should?

01:19:05: I know that school is not doing it and we need to give them the chance make really informed decisions for future.

01:19:17: We agreed on a capitalist system, Not everybody likes it but its current situation.

01:19:26: capitalism And nobody understands it.

01:19:35: Standable, actually how to live in a capitalistic system by living our values and the good way.

01:19:48: Yeah?

01:19:49: Values mean it's not about making money It's more about having positive impact on society.

01:19:57: That is also why we invest usually in medical device companies which short have a positive benefit on patients or health care systems.

01:20:10: Of course, first reason is that I know the system, the medical device world but secondly also if something else will come later because of the education my kids for example taking care of environment saving energy it might change yeah?

01:20:32: But in moment, I'm the only expert and something investable.

01:20:40: And therefore we focusing on medical

01:20:43: devices.".

01:20:44: And yeah...I want to teach them that being wealthy also means a lot of responsibility in not spending money for new clothes, big cars and fancy journeys through the world!

01:21:03: Of course We could afford it, but not everything you can't afford.

01:21:09: You need to buy But taking care of that you do something good with the money.

01:21:15: That's the reason why I try to improve them and as i said for children when two or even three would understand The concept of doing things Good things was your money.

01:21:30: Then uh...I would have Done something good for the society.

01:21:35: I think and there is a circle around again

01:21:41: And I'm sure their characters are quite different in different ages boys girls or

01:21:50: Yeah, what does really hard influence of social media?

01:21:55: I mean if you look on YouTube Or wherever they're always guys sitting On The Ferrari and say listen to me and i tell You how To make millions of dollars within a week, and they need to learn that I think my idea of living is first different from them.

01:22:18: To the Ferrari guy but also it's probably their real way into a wealthy life which isn't an easier one.

01:22:33: so you just have to trust me that I know what to do, and also try to teach them belief only in people who can show you they succeeded.

01:22:46: What did he want to reach?

01:22:48: And not everybody on social media.

01:22:53: And ego of course is a very important problem especially for younger generation.

01:22:59: They need to develop an ego.

01:23:05: You can also have an impact on that, even with your own kids.

01:23:09: And when you just be a rule model and don't need a Ferrari or nice clothes that people really like not because of the wealth but as a person That is part my education It's difficult But I did the same with GCP service.

01:23:35: the people are sometimes more, sometimes less.

01:23:39: Yeah

01:23:39: but you definitely did and that we definitely still feel here.

01:23:45: That's a nice sentiment really.

01:23:47: to wrap this up I think We went full circle here.

01:23:51: Thank You Andreas for being Here.

01:23:53: i

01:23:54: would love too as A closing question or from you As I wanted From The Other Guest What Gives You Hope?

01:24:06: I'm not big fan of hope.

01:24:09: I hope for me it's too passive.

01:24:16: When people are searching for the sense of life, that is the same.

01:24:21: It's passive.

01:24:22: finding something as passive you need to give your live-sense more active and therefore when i speak about hope really that they have only one life, then need to make the best of it.

01:24:44: It's no test-life now which in second life and I do a better know is just one life And there needs to be active and its not about surviving Its really living fully being aware about when more people learn i think also better live together.

01:25:12: Thank you for sharing your perspective and your journey with us today.

01:25:16: Any last closing words that you have for us or the viewers?

01:25:21: Just once again, thank you very much for inviting me.

01:25:23: it was really interesting.

01:25:25: It's also interesting For me to reflect my journey a little bit once again.

01:25:33: And yeah I wish you good luck.

01:25:35: You are on a good way and just continue in that way.

01:25:38: Thank you Andreas.